tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8139328.post295725919755939403..comments2023-06-28T07:58:56.909-04:00Comments on PERGE MODO: Oh dear, did something I say offend the clergy?Tony Adamshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10091330901996916966noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8139328.post-74095487780240674402008-08-12T12:53:00.000-04:002008-08-12T12:53:00.000-04:00Father Tony, I read your article at Bilerico and y...Father Tony, I read your article at Bilerico and your parable, which I take as a Parable, not an allegory. Where did you ever bring down the RCC? I thought it a quite moving and powerful story.<BR/><BR/>And, I think you do have the gift of faith / belief. Indeed, and pwerfully so. Gifts are things that come easily and readily. I think perhaps you don't see it (or don't want to).<BR/><BR/>Your gift of faith is in God, not the Church. Big difference there.<BR/><BR/>Also, belief is about the heart, not the head. (Following Marcus Borg on that). As has been said by others (Barbara Brown Taylor is my source on it) we come to God beholding the Mystery. Simply, cleanly, inexplicably. When we turn that into "beliefs" (meaning of the head), we miss it. Keep beholding, as you do.Vic Mansfieldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06194671996997775313noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8139328.post-18101930369105306952008-08-11T23:37:00.000-04:002008-08-11T23:37:00.000-04:00Great post Father T. Great thoughts from everyone...Great post Father T. Great thoughts from everyone. <BR/><BR/>Father T: Are you Simeon or Merlin? <BR/><BR/>I say Merlin. What say you?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8139328.post-79829024277289862622008-08-11T15:49:00.000-04:002008-08-11T15:49:00.000-04:00But you are no Martin Luther, I'm afraid, and styl...<I>But you are no Martin Luther, I'm afraid, and styling yourself as one does much to undermine your denial of narcissim. Furthermore, your comments about humility remind me of the old joke about the guy who got a medal for being the Most Humble Person, and had to give it up because he wore it. BTW, what makes you think that someone who disagrees with you actually secretly agrees with what you say and is "afraid " of your comments?</I><BR/><BR/>What makes me realize that you are afraid of Father Tony is that you began your defensive post by spending an inordinate amount of time trying to insult him personally.<BR/><BR/>If you had something of substance to say, you would have said it. Instead, you defeat youself through childish games playing.Steve Schalchlinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08151100118640317860noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8139328.post-20750127770740300032008-08-11T07:33:00.000-04:002008-08-11T07:33:00.000-04:00he might be a priest...i'd be more impressed if he...he might be a priest...<BR/><BR/>i'd be more impressed if he wasn't actually.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8139328.post-22378375313553621412008-08-10T16:59:00.000-04:002008-08-10T16:59:00.000-04:00Dear Cleo,What on earth would make you think I wou...Dear Cleo,<BR/>What on earth would make you think I would delete your comment? Throughout the four years of this blog, I've had to block only a small handful of comments. Mostly, they were the slanderous product of late-night drinking and were not critical of me at all. Over at Bilerico, I do not control the commentary floodgates. Only the editors do that.<BR/><BR/>Thomas Tucker certainly does give the impression that he "knows" me, doesn't he? He has taken the time to read me carefully and so I take him seriously. Do you believe him when he says he is not a clergyman?Tony Adamshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10091330901996916966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8139328.post-87519920112781723292008-08-10T15:53:00.000-04:002008-08-10T15:53:00.000-04:00don't know who you are, thomas tucker, but you kno...don't know who you are, thomas tucker, but you know enough about the "good father" to know the story as it truly is.<BR/><BR/>tony, don't be afraid of criticism by deleting my comment.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8139328.post-42138343453313556312008-08-10T12:37:00.000-04:002008-08-10T12:37:00.000-04:00Fr. Tony-Thanks for the thoughtful answer to my qu...Fr. Tony-<BR/><BR/>Thanks for the thoughtful answer to my question. I do take issue with one part of your response:<BR/><BR/>"But, I think we have a natural inclination to belief, and to wrestling with the big mysteries."<BR/><BR/>Is belief the only, or indeed even a good, way to wrestle with such mysteries? This is exactly what I meant when I cited my science background as contributing to my successful negotiation out of religion (and I was including belief in my use of the word religion here). <BR/><BR/>Science allows folks to ask really big questions. The pursuit of answers using the tools of science is extraordinarily satisfying. And although scientific disputes are rarely resolved without acrimony, in contrast to religion they are resolved without bloodshed. And, also unlike religion, eventually they do get resolved. Within Christianity, schisms have persisted for 1,000 years without resolution. Nobody is a Lamarkian or a vitalist any more. <BR/><BR/>I can definitely agree with not wanting to give up the struggle to find answers to challenging questions. I don't think that giving up an effort to believe implies giving up pursuit of these questions. Indeed, I don't think that belief in the absence of evidence is a particularly effective way of getting good answers in the first place.Doug Taronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08537881828742937167noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8139328.post-28714089809470036462008-08-10T05:25:00.000-04:002008-08-10T05:25:00.000-04:00It's Sunday morning at 5:00am, could not sleep any...It's Sunday morning at 5:00am, could not sleep any further, and Home Depot and the Gym are closed, so I opted to read your blog instead. <BR/><BR/>I agree with you, the Catholic Church is in a transition. At this point it is trying to figure out whether it will change with the times like it has always done throughout the centuries, or stick to its dumb old dogma and shrink -- and loose wealth and influence. I think that the extreme conservativism the C.C. is going through right now is an attempt at damage control due to the child abuse scandals they had to deal with in the last several years. Something, just like homosexuality, that has always been there, but only been publicized recently.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8139328.post-68319126141185449522008-08-10T01:33:00.000-04:002008-08-10T01:33:00.000-04:00Dear Doug,"Disentangling from religion" is, I thin...Dear Doug,<BR/>"Disentangling from religion" is, I think, a matter entirely different from becoming a believer of some sort. Religion seemed to me to be a club membership. Easy to let it expire But, I think we have a natural inclination to belief, and to wrestling with the big mysteries. To walk away from that wrestling (or entanglement, to use your word) would be a fruitless end. What would it leave us with? I have atheist friends who do good deeds and are generous and helpful. With a shrug of their shoulders, they say "karma". That is their belief system, as far as they will let it evolve and it seems to be enough for them. I need something with a more complex molecular structure. Maybe.Tony Adamshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10091330901996916966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8139328.post-40854748400513440732008-08-09T23:08:00.000-04:002008-08-09T23:08:00.000-04:001- Thank you for posting in large type. It is so m...1- Thank you for posting in large type. It is so much easier to read than little letter. <BR/>2- Always remember the first three words of the speech last sumner by miss teenage south carolina...I personally believe. <BR/>3- The first two letters of believe are BE. The second three letters are LIE. <BR/>chamblee54Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8139328.post-27158236790218332212008-08-09T21:30:00.000-04:002008-08-09T21:30:00.000-04:00>One thing is certain. I look at my friends who...>One thing is certain. I look at my friends who have given up the effort to believe, and I know I do not want to become one of them.<BR/><BR/>Why not? I mean the question completely without snark. I was raised in the RCC and spent some time in high school and college as an evangelical Christian. It took me a long time to disentangle myself entirely from religion. My science background helped a lot with that. I look back now on the process and wonder why I made it so difficult for myself. What of your perception of the lives of acquaintances who do not believe do you find so distasteful?Doug Taronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08537881828742937167noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8139328.post-18052394187303755822008-08-09T19:54:00.000-04:002008-08-09T19:54:00.000-04:00Hmmm. I'm not seeing much that's new here, so I gu...Hmmm. I'm not seeing much that's new here, so I guess we've pretty much shredded this to its smallest bits. I did however read twice Thomas Tucker's statement "I am sure he believes something." On this we can agree, and yet, I fervently wish I knew what it was that I really and truly believe. It's always been a sort of brass ring just out of reach. One thing is certain. I look at my friends who have given up the effort to believe, and I know I do not want to become one of them. This, in and of itself, may be a satisfactory attainment of God.Tony Adamshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10091330901996916966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8139328.post-64247489931355113212008-08-09T18:19:00.000-04:002008-08-09T18:19:00.000-04:00doug- perhaps you have never read thru all off Fat...doug- perhaps you have never read thru all off Father T's old posts in the archives. He made it clear some time ago that he did not believe essential Catholic teachings, even as he was undergoing ordination and funtioning as a priest. That is why I made the comment that I did.<BR/>I am sure he believes something, but not Catholic doctrine.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8139328.post-36384096400592150082008-08-09T11:13:00.000-04:002008-08-09T11:13:00.000-04:00LOL, dantallion. There is nothing threatening in ...LOL, dantallion. There is nothing threatening in Father T's comments. That's part of the point- the image of Father T standing up to bravely confront the Catholic Curch is ludicrous rather than threatening.<BR/>And, Father T, thanks for your kind words- I enjoy the skirmishing and do respect you, as much as I disagree with you, and always will. But you are no Martin Luther, I'm afraid, and styling yourself as one does much to undermine your denial of narcissim. Furthermore, your comments about humility remind me of the old joke about the guy who got a medal for being the Most Humble Person, and had to give it up because he wore it.<BR/>BTW, what makes you think that someone who disagrees with you actually secretly agrees with what you say and is "afraid " of your comments? Can you not abide someone dsiagreeing with you? Does it threaten your self-esteem? Are you the one actually afraid? I guess two can play that game. Let's just agree to disagree, shall we, without suspecting hidden motives.<BR/>As for truth, my position is well know to you- the truth is in Christ and Christ founded His Church to teach it. We come closer to the truth by conforming ourselves to the teaching of the Church rather than by trying to conform Church teaching to our own desires and wishes.<BR/>BTW, parables are simple, but not sophomoric. Your "parable" is sophomoric, and narcissistic, in that it focuses on you and the harm that you feel has been done to you, and how you have been treated,and how you feel about it, and how you will do this or how you will do that- i.e. it's all about you.<BR/>Finally, so there is no misunderstanding- I am not a member of the clergy.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8139328.post-72083959533882989832008-08-09T10:47:00.000-04:002008-08-09T10:47:00.000-04:00I liked the parable. I really disliked TT's point...I liked the parable. I really disliked TT's point about your not being a True Believerâ„¢. I find the readiness of many who wear their religion on their sleeves to ascribe this specific beliefs and feelings to others to be truly offensive.Doug Taronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08537881828742937167noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8139328.post-11704276985747408962008-08-08T19:42:00.000-04:002008-08-08T19:42:00.000-04:00Yeah, I'm thinking you hit a little close to home ...Yeah, I'm thinking you hit a little close to home for TT... that sort of holier-than-thou snottiness is usually the vice of someone threatened by truth...dantallionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13018930605323027237noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8139328.post-67222841083379289452008-08-08T15:48:00.000-04:002008-08-08T15:48:00.000-04:00I wondered when this retort was coming. I've been...I wondered when this retort was coming. I've been waiting to read your response all afternoon. Whether you have been released by your lord, or you were dismissing TT, the Latin phrase was a nice and fitting final touch.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com